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Messages from 71425

Article: 71425
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:15:02 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Andrew Rogers wrote:

> 
> I wonder how much Microsoft are paying Xilinx! After all Xilinx don't 
> release ISE WebPACK for Linux. Has anyone heard a REAL reason for Xilinx 
> not releasing WebPACK for Linux?

Well, annoying though it is, I don't think it's a conspiracy :-) It's 
probably a combination of:

  o Most Linux WebPack users will never contribute sufficient funds back 
to Xilinx to make it worth their while.

  o They pay a per-seat licence for their officially-supported 
foundation package on Linux to the GUI-library owners. They therefore 
can't offer it as a download for WebPack.

What it would probably take would be a large customer saying "we're 
going to move to Altera/whoever unless you do the port before XXX", with 
XXX being a realistic target in the future. At that point, there's a 
commercial pressure to do the port, and Xilinx can take a view on 
whether it's worth it. Even then, their view might be 'see that lake, 
run and jump' :-)

Another route for Xilinx to get their finger out would be if 
Altera/whoever did it first - Xilinx wouldn't be far behind then, I'd 
imagine, bragging rights and image are nowhere near as important as 
commercial pressures, but they still count :-)

Simon.

Article: 71426
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Andrew Rogers <andrew@_NO_SPAM_rogerstech.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:18:10 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Simon wrote:
> Andrew Rogers wrote:
> 
>>
>> I wonder how much Microsoft are paying Xilinx! After all Xilinx don't 
>> release ISE WebPACK for Linux. Has anyone heard a REAL reason for 
>> Xilinx not releasing WebPACK for Linux?
> 
> 
> Well, annoying though it is, I don't think it's a conspiracy :-) It's 
> probably a combination of:
> 
>  o Most Linux WebPack users will never contribute sufficient funds back 
> to Xilinx to make it worth their while.

Equally applicable to Windows WebPACK users in my opinion. I'll buy 
FPGAs if the software is free, I'll buy nothing if the software isn't free.
> 
>  o They pay a per-seat licence for their officially-supported foundation 
> package on Linux to the GUI-library owners. They therefore can't offer 
> it as a download for WebPack.

How about the command line tools; xst, map, par, bitgen, etc?
> 
> What it would probably take would be a large customer saying "we're 
> going to move to Altera/whoever unless you do the port before XXX", with 
> XXX being a realistic target in the future. At that point, there's a 
> commercial pressure to do the port, and Xilinx can take a view on 
> whether it's worth it. Even then, their view might be 'see that lake, 
> run and jump' :-)

At 110Kg I'm a large customer! Xilinx, I'm moving to Altera if you don't 
  release the Linux WebPACK that you have hidden somewhere and are 
keeping quiet about!
> 
> Another route for Xilinx to get their finger out would be if 
> Altera/whoever did it first - Xilinx wouldn't be far behind then, I'd 
> imagine, bragging rights and image are nowhere near as important as 
> commercial pressures, but they still count :-)

Xilinx should retain their world leader status and should get in there 
first!

Andrew.


Article: 71427
Subject: Re: FPGA Development board with onboard Ethernet PHY
From: damc4@gmx.de (Marc)
Date: 18 Jul 2004 04:36:18 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
You can get from www.devboards.de a PHY daughter card with a National
10/100/1000 PHY that fits on all Altera evaluation boards.

Best Regards,

Marc

Anup Raghavan <anupr@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<40FA01E6.B7F56D88@ieee.org>...
> Thanks y'all for your directions.
> 
> Anup
> 
> 
> Anup Raghavan wrote:
> 
> > Hello, I am looking for a FPGA development/prototyping board that has a
> > RJ45 connector and on board PHY chip.  Can I get recommendations?
> >
> > Thanks

Article: 71428
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:23:43 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
John Adair wrote:

> Have a look at our product Broadown2. We can definately support 32 bit
> memory. Details are here
> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/broaddown2.html . Our pricing is
> roughly comparable to Avnet. If you are a student/academic within the area
> covered by our UAP program there may be discounts available.
> 

I'd seen your boards, and indeed they look pretty good - they look more 
like 'professional' kits than hobbyist ones though, which is both good 
and bad ...

I like the security of having a led or switch onboard that I can use for 
debugging (though it would be relatively easy to use all the headers you 
provide to do the same, granted :-) and using standard memory interfaces 
is definitely a step forward :-)

The reason why I didn't include your board is that there's no price 
available and it *looks* expensive. In my limited experience, the 
combination of the two means it normally *is* expensive [grin].

It also looks as though it's for professional use and, from what I 
understand of the summary on the page, it can only be controlled via PCI 
and to do anything useful (ie: custom) with it, I'd need to licence a 
PCI core from someone (you, Xilinx, whoever), yes ? Does the opencores 
PCI core work with the board ?

If the board can be used (with my design, not just as an io board) 
without paying for a PCI core (I'm a hobbyist, as you can probably tell 
:-), then by all means send me a quote. If you prefer, I'll not divulge 
the price either :-)

If your pricing is comparable, perhaps you'd want to think about putting 
it online - that's the main reason I ignored your board in the first 
place...

Simon.

Article: 71429
Subject: Re: ChipScope Pro : Stimulation
From: "INS122595" <walter@chasque.apc.org>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:56:27 -0300
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Yes,  if you have ChipScope 6.2 is possible, search VIO into ChipScope docs.

Walter.

"Vivek Joshi" <vjoshi@harris.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:ee8793f.-1@webx.sUN8CHnE...
Is it possible to use ChipScope Pro to stimulate signals? I'm trying to
figure out if i can use ChipScope Pro to drive some signals in my FPGA.



Article: 71430
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Uwe Bonnes <bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:17:39 +0000 (UTC)
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
"andrew<AT>rogerstech<DOT>co<DOT>uk" <"andrew<AT>rogerstech<DOT>co <DOT>uk"> wrote:
: I have 5.1 ISE WebPACK running under wine but just discivered it doesn't 
: support Spartan3. From the archives I read about some difficulties 
: regarding 6.2 ISE running on wine, have these been solved?

: http://www.fpga-faq.com/archives/70825.html

In "70825" nothing about wine is said. In "70836" I tell about the success I
have, your milage may vary.

: I urgently need to know if 6.2 ISE works under wine as I have just 
: ordered the $99 Spartan-3 Starter Kit. If not I shall need to cancel my 
: order.

: For those who haven't seen the Spartan 3 Kit:

: http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3/s3boards.htm

: Looks like a superb bit of kit, I will be buying a number of these for 
: my University module. Having the RAM on board is great. The applications 
: I have already thought about - add an ADC and you have a digital storage 
: scope, Turbo decoder, LDPC codes and so on. We'll need to get the ISE 
: 6.2 WebPACK running on Linux and write our own programmer software. 

Watch for MITOUJTAG (http://www.nahitech.com/jtag-en/). I ran it with wine
to program XC95288XL and to test the pins and connections of a XC2V500-456.

: ...

-- 
Uwe Bonnes                bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

Article: 71431
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Joe <joe_y@invalid_address.nospam.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:35:40 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Simon wrote:
> So, I have a 32-bit processor design which I'd like to move to the 
> implementation stage, and I was wondering which of the 
> currently-available boards have 32-bit wide memory... I don't really 
> fancy designing my own because I've never ventured near 4-layer boards, 
> and if I was making my own, I'd want one of the FG456 packages, and 
> presumably you'd have to get that professionally soldered anyway...
> 
> As far as I can tell:
> 
>   Xilinx starter kit
>   ------------------
> 
>      Pros: 32-bit wide RAM
>            LCD/Leds for debugging
>            PS2/VGA outputs
>            Price: $99 :-)
> 
>      Cons:
>            Only 1 MByte of RAM
>            Uses the '200 part not the '400
>            No ethernet PHY
>            Fixed oscillator freq. (the CPU goes faster :-)
>            Not many user-IO's available
> 
> 
>   AVnet Spartan-3 evaluation kit
>   ------------------------------
> 
>      Pros: '400 part used :-)
>            Two oscillators, socketed
>            Lots of IO's available
>            Ethernet, VGA, PS2, RS232, Leds etc.
>            Could potentially be a PCI card
> 
>      Cons: Only 1 MByte RAM
>            Not clear if the memory is 32-bit wide
>            Price is $399
> 
> 
>   Memec DS-KIT-3SLC400-PAC
>   ------------------------
> 
>      Cons: Has no memory on-board, enough said.
> 
> 
>   Nu Horizons Spartan3 board
>   --------------------------
> 
>      Pros: Uses the '400 part, but only in the '208 package
>            Has D2A and A2D onboard
>            Has Flash RAM
>            Has LCD (4x24) as well as leds,buttons etc.
>            Has spare oscillator socket for > 20MHz operation
>            Price - $164 :-)
> 
>      Cons: SDRAM appears to be 16-bit wide
>            Only has ~20 user io due to '208 package
> 
> 
> 
> So, nothing is perfect [grin], The AVNet one may be the best of the 
> bunch, despite being the most expensive, so long as it has 32-bit wide 
> RAM. I'd really appreciate it if someone who already has the board could 
> tell me :-)
> 
> 
> 
> For the record (in case any board companies are listening :-) my ideal 
> board would be something like:
> 
>  - FG456 Spartan 3 '400 part
>  - Lots of user-IO, some with pin headers not obscure connectors
>  - 32+ bit wide RAM, either SRAM or SDRAM. How about a DIMM :-)
>  - Ethernet PHY
>  - Leds / buttons / LED (or LCD) display
>  - VGA and PS2 connectors
>  - PCI edge connector would be nice but not essential
> 
> If Xilinx can do theirs for $99, I think the above could be do-able for 
> $200 (or $199 in marketing speak). I'd bite your hand off :-)
> 
> Simon

Don't forgot to check :
- the cost of postage/delivery
- if design examples are available

I'm in UK and Xilinx charge US$29.2 for shipping,
while Nu Horizons charge US$75.0 (and no design
examples), so I ordered the Xilinx board.

1Mb RAM is quite a lot usless you use it for video/audio processing.
Regarding bus width issue, you can develope a simple bus bridge /
RAM controller to convert 32-bit accesses to 16-bits (provided you
have wait state input on your CPU core).

A few more things add to the wish list:
- RS232 (already available om some boards you mentioned)
- PS/2 interface x 2 (one for mouse, one for keyboard as the same time)
- Audio (I2S)
- SDRAM, or
- SDRAM module connector ( for PC100/133 modules - you can plug one
   in if you wanted to use SDRAM, or if you don't need SD-RAM you
   can have the pins for user I/O.)
- LCD module connector
- and yes, Xilinx, will you guys make a starter kit with XC3S-400 
pleassssssssssse  8-)

- Also it would be nice if vendors can develop I/O boards for the 
Xilinx's kit (am I getting too demanding here? :-)

Joe

Article: 71432
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: "John Adair" <removethisthenleavejea@replacewithcompanyname.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:45:02 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Price for the standard board is £250 / 399 Euro / $399 plus shipping and any
applying taxes in your country. The price is buried in a pdf flyer that is
linked on the website, look here
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/Broaddown2_Flyer.pdf . The phy/RJ45
plug-in price is not set but should be less than £20. I'm glad to have our
product thought of as "quality" and I certainly wouldn't want to produce
anything less.

The next batch of un-sold boards will be with us in approximately 6-8 weeks.

If anyone else thinks we should have further info on website etc let me know
what you think is missing and I will have the website improved to cover any
gaps.

The board is aimed at professional users and students but we don't mind
selling to hobby engineers. The DIL headers will take stripboard as well as
manufactured boards and that was deliberate feature in the board concept.

Twin digit LED is available on plug-in supplied with board.

You don't need a PCI license. The PCI connector can be used as an I/O
connector. We have a test board that we might make into a product that
already does this. We also have a free standard build on the way that will
allow the board to be used as an I/O board without doing anything except
programming the Broaddown2 Platform Flash device. I haven't used opencores
PCI but I can't think of any reason that it should not work.


-- 
John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Simon" <news@gornall.net> wrote in message
news:jZtKc.780$b11.202@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> John Adair wrote:
>
> > Have a look at our product Broadown2. We can definately support 32 bit
> > memory. Details are here
> > http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/broaddown2.html . Our pricing is
> > roughly comparable to Avnet. If you are a student/academic within the
area
> > covered by our UAP program there may be discounts available.
> >
>
> I'd seen your boards, and indeed they look pretty good - they look more
> like 'professional' kits than hobbyist ones though, which is both good
> and bad ...
>
> I like the security of having a led or switch onboard that I can use for
> debugging (though it would be relatively easy to use all the headers you
> provide to do the same, granted :-) and using standard memory interfaces
> is definitely a step forward :-)
>
> The reason why I didn't include your board is that there's no price
> available and it *looks* expensive. In my limited experience, the
> combination of the two means it normally *is* expensive [grin].
>
> It also looks as though it's for professional use and, from what I
> understand of the summary on the page, it can only be controlled via PCI
> and to do anything useful (ie: custom) with it, I'd need to licence a
> PCI core from someone (you, Xilinx, whoever), yes ? Does the opencores
> PCI core work with the board ?
>
> If the board can be used (with my design, not just as an io board)
> without paying for a PCI core (I'm a hobbyist, as you can probably tell
> :-), then by all means send me a quote. If you prefer, I'll not divulge
> the price either :-)
>
> If your pricing is comparable, perhaps you'd want to think about putting
> it online - that's the main reason I ignored your board in the first
> place...
>
> Simon.



Article: 71433
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: "John Adair" <removethisthenleavejea@replacewithcompanyname.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:53:37 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Get us a little time and we will satisfy most of these demands by plug-ins.
We are UK based so shipping to the UK should be around the £10 mark or less.

Our SODIMM socket will support I/O functions. We have such a board already
on the way for our own purposes. One of our standard builds (free) will
support this.

-- 
John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Joe" <joe_y@invalid_address.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cde1j4$ckh$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Simon wrote:
> > So, I have a 32-bit processor design which I'd like to move to the
> > implementation stage, and I was wondering which of the
> > currently-available boards have 32-bit wide memory... I don't really
> > fancy designing my own because I've never ventured near 4-layer boards,
> > and if I was making my own, I'd want one of the FG456 packages, and
> > presumably you'd have to get that professionally soldered anyway...
> >
> > As far as I can tell:
> >
> >   Xilinx starter kit
> >   ------------------
> >
> >      Pros: 32-bit wide RAM
> >            LCD/Leds for debugging
> >            PS2/VGA outputs
> >            Price: $99 :-)
> >
> >      Cons:
> >            Only 1 MByte of RAM
> >            Uses the '200 part not the '400
> >            No ethernet PHY
> >            Fixed oscillator freq. (the CPU goes faster :-)
> >            Not many user-IO's available
> >
> >
> >   AVnet Spartan-3 evaluation kit
> >   ------------------------------
> >
> >      Pros: '400 part used :-)
> >            Two oscillators, socketed
> >            Lots of IO's available
> >            Ethernet, VGA, PS2, RS232, Leds etc.
> >            Could potentially be a PCI card
> >
> >      Cons: Only 1 MByte RAM
> >            Not clear if the memory is 32-bit wide
> >            Price is $399
> >
> >
> >   Memec DS-KIT-3SLC400-PAC
> >   ------------------------
> >
> >      Cons: Has no memory on-board, enough said.
> >
> >
> >   Nu Horizons Spartan3 board
> >   --------------------------
> >
> >      Pros: Uses the '400 part, but only in the '208 package
> >            Has D2A and A2D onboard
> >            Has Flash RAM
> >            Has LCD (4x24) as well as leds,buttons etc.
> >            Has spare oscillator socket for > 20MHz operation
> >            Price - $164 :-)
> >
> >      Cons: SDRAM appears to be 16-bit wide
> >            Only has ~20 user io due to '208 package
> >
> >
> >
> > So, nothing is perfect [grin], The AVNet one may be the best of the
> > bunch, despite being the most expensive, so long as it has 32-bit wide
> > RAM. I'd really appreciate it if someone who already has the board could
> > tell me :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > For the record (in case any board companies are listening :-) my ideal
> > board would be something like:
> >
> >  - FG456 Spartan 3 '400 part
> >  - Lots of user-IO, some with pin headers not obscure connectors
> >  - 32+ bit wide RAM, either SRAM or SDRAM. How about a DIMM :-)
> >  - Ethernet PHY
> >  - Leds / buttons / LED (or LCD) display
> >  - VGA and PS2 connectors
> >  - PCI edge connector would be nice but not essential
> >
> > If Xilinx can do theirs for $99, I think the above could be do-able for
> > $200 (or $199 in marketing speak). I'd bite your hand off :-)
> >
> > Simon
>
> Don't forgot to check :
> - the cost of postage/delivery
> - if design examples are available
>
> I'm in UK and Xilinx charge US$29.2 for shipping,
> while Nu Horizons charge US$75.0 (and no design
> examples), so I ordered the Xilinx board.
>
> 1Mb RAM is quite a lot usless you use it for video/audio processing.
> Regarding bus width issue, you can develope a simple bus bridge /
> RAM controller to convert 32-bit accesses to 16-bits (provided you
> have wait state input on your CPU core).
>
> A few more things add to the wish list:
> - RS232 (already available om some boards you mentioned)
> - PS/2 interface x 2 (one for mouse, one for keyboard as the same time)
> - Audio (I2S)
> - SDRAM, or
> - SDRAM module connector ( for PC100/133 modules - you can plug one
>    in if you wanted to use SDRAM, or if you don't need SD-RAM you
>    can have the pins for user I/O.)
> - LCD module connector
> - and yes, Xilinx, will you guys make a starter kit with XC3S-400
> pleassssssssssse  8-)
>
> - Also it would be nice if vendors can develop I/O boards for the
> Xilinx's kit (am I getting too demanding here? :-)
>
> Joe



Article: 71434
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Joe <joe_y@invalid_address.nospam.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:00:14 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
John Adair wrote:
> Get us a little time and we will satisfy most of these demands by plug-ins.
> We are UK based so shipping to the UK should be around the £10 mark or less.
> 
> Our SODIMM socket will support I/O functions. We have such a board already
> on the way for our own purposes. One of our standard builds (free) will
> support this.
> 

Hi John,

I saw your board, but using DDR-RAM is a bit overkill for most projects,
especailly for hobbyists and students. So I assumed your board is for 
professionals (and therefore expensive? 8-)

Also DDR-SDRAM controller design is more complex that I am not sure if I 
can cope with that. Possibly the DDR-SDRAM controller design already 
take 25% of the FPGA :-)

I like the idea of having three versions XC3S400, 1000 and 1500.  Having 
PCI connector is nice too, but I don't need that at this moment.  I only 
want to do some experiments on designing CPU cores, that's why RS232, 
PS2, VGA and SRAM interface are useful for me. I don't have access to 
PCB manufacturing facilities so can't do my own add-on boards.

I have been thinking about getting the B5-X300 from www.Burched.com, but 
the total cost (FPGA board + ad-on boards) is still a bit expensive. So 
the Xilinx's kit fit the bill.

If your company will do a board like the Xilinx starter kit, but with 
XC3S400 part, I will certainly be very interested (if it is not too 
expensive) :-)

Joe

Article: 71435
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: "John Adair" <removethisthenleavejea@replacewithcompanyname.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:12:44 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
It is very hard to hit the mark with everyone. Broaddown2 was never intended
for the very cheap end. It is a fairly complex board and has manufacturing
costs that go with that complexity. The main leaning to hobby electronics is
that the XC3S400 is supported by Webpack and which anything bigger isn't
supported.

We are looking at a range of option boards for the DDR2 socket including
other memory types. Watch this space.

There may be some things coming out late 2004 that may be suitable for hobby
electronics. Watch for product announcements or join our email list if you
are interested.


-- 
John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Joe" <joe_y@invalid_address.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cde6ht$s7i$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...
> John Adair wrote:
> > Get us a little time and we will satisfy most of these demands by
plug-ins.
> > We are UK based so shipping to the UK should be around the £10 mark or
less.
> >
> > Our SODIMM socket will support I/O functions. We have such a board
already
> > on the way for our own purposes. One of our standard builds (free) will
> > support this.
> >
>
> Hi John,
>
> I saw your board, but using DDR-RAM is a bit overkill for most projects,
> especailly for hobbyists and students. So I assumed your board is for
> professionals (and therefore expensive? 8-)
>
> Also DDR-SDRAM controller design is more complex that I am not sure if I
> can cope with that. Possibly the DDR-SDRAM controller design already
> take 25% of the FPGA :-)
>
> I like the idea of having three versions XC3S400, 1000 and 1500.  Having
> PCI connector is nice too, but I don't need that at this moment.  I only
> want to do some experiments on designing CPU cores, that's why RS232,
> PS2, VGA and SRAM interface are useful for me. I don't have access to
> PCB manufacturing facilities so can't do my own add-on boards.
>
> I have been thinking about getting the B5-X300 from www.Burched.com, but
> the total cost (FPGA board + ad-on boards) is still a bit expensive. So
> the Xilinx's kit fit the bill.
>
> If your company will do a board like the Xilinx starter kit, but with
> XC3S400 part, I will certainly be very interested (if it is not too
> expensive) :-)
>
> Joe



Article: 71436
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Paul Hartke <phartke@Stanford.EDU>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:21:06 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Joe, 

According to http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/userguides/ug130.pdf,
the Xilinx Spartan-3 Starter Kit board uses the Digilent expansion 
header.  A number of peripheral boards are available at:
https://digilent.us/Sales/boards.cfm#Peripheral

Paul

Joe wrote:
> 
<snip>
> 
> - Also it would be nice if vendors can develop I/O boards for the
> Xilinx's kit (am I getting too demanding here? :-)
> 
> Joe

Article: 71437
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Paul Hartke <phartke@Stanford.EDU>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:33:33 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Simon,

There will be an Ethernet Peripheral Board available for the Xilinx 
Spartan-3 Starter Kit board from Digilent:
https://digilent.us/Sales/Product.cfm?Prod=NET1

I physically have one of these boards right now but do not know when 
they will be generally available.

Paul

Simon wrote:
> 
> So, I have a 32-bit processor design which I'd like to move to the
> implementation stage, and I was wondering which of the
> currently-available boards have 32-bit wide memory... I don't really
> fancy designing my own because I've never ventured near 4-layer boards,
> and if I was making my own, I'd want one of the FG456 packages, and
> presumably you'd have to get that professionally soldered anyway...
> 
> As far as I can tell:
> 
>    Xilinx starter kit
>    ------------------
> 
>       Pros: 32-bit wide RAM
>             LCD/Leds for debugging
>             PS2/VGA outputs
>             Price: $99 :-)
> 
>       Cons:
>             Only 1 MByte of RAM
>             Uses the '200 part not the '400
>             No ethernet PHY
>             Fixed oscillator freq. (the CPU goes faster :-)
>             Not many user-IO's available
>

Article: 71438
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:38:44 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
John Adair wrote:

> Price for the standard board is £250 / 399 Euro / $399 plus shipping and any
> applying taxes in your country. The price is buried in a pdf flyer that is
> linked on the website, look here
> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/Broaddown2_Flyer.pdf . The phy/RJ45
> plug-in price is not set but should be less than £20. I'm glad to have our
> product thought of as "quality" and I certainly wouldn't want to produce
> anything less.

Sorry, I wasn't impugning the quality of yours or any other board, what 
I  meant was the 'look' of the board was more professional, in that it 
didn't have the leds, rs232, lcd/led display etc. that a 'starter kit' 
typically has. It looks like a 'workhorse' solution rather than the 
'prancing pony' with all the extras ... hmm. Not sure about my analogy :-)

> The next batch of un-sold boards will be with us in approximately 6-8 weeks.

Well, it looks good to me :-)

> If anyone else thinks we should have further info on website etc let me know
> what you think is missing and I will have the website improved to cover any
> gaps.
> 
> The board is aimed at professional users and students but we don't mind
> selling to hobby engineers. The DIL headers will take stripboard as well as
> manufactured boards and that was deliberate feature in the board concept.
> 
> Twin digit LED is available on plug-in supplied with board.

Ah yes, I see that now - I missed it before. I had found the second of 
the PDF's on your site, but missed the one with the price on it.

> You don't need a PCI license. The PCI connector can be used as an I/O
> connector. We have a test board that we might make into a product that
> already does this. We also have a free standard build on the way that will
> allow the board to be used as an I/O board without doing anything except
> programming the Broaddown2 Platform Flash device. I haven't used opencores
> PCI but I can't think of any reason that it should not work.

When you were referring to 'standard build for an i/o board', I had 
thought you meant a board configured using the PCI slot, with a fixed 
download configuration, to be used for testing rather than development.

I now think you mean that the board doesn't need to be in a computer, 
and that the i/o you're talking about is the configuration of the 
Spartan-3 with a custom (ie: mine :-) configuration via the pci edge 
connector, even though not using the PCI protocols. Is this what you mean ?

To be clear, before I cough up £250: is there a direct way of 
programming the board from within WebPack, or would I need to design a 
host interface to sit between the PCI edge connector and the download 
cable ?

Simon.

Article: 71439
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Paul Hartke <phartke@Stanford.EDU>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:47:40 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Simon,

With regard to the Oscillator frequency, have you seen the following in
the User Guide (http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/userguides/ug130.pdf)?

"The Spartan-3 Starter Kit board has a dedicated 50 MHz Epson SG-8002JF
series clock oscillator source and an optional socket for another clock  
oscillator source. Figure A-5 provides a detailed schematic for the
clock
sources.

The 50 MHz clock oscillator is mounted on the bottom side of the board,
indicated as in Figure A-5. Use the 50 MHz clock frequency as is or
derive
other frequencies using the FPGAs Digital Clock Managers (DCMs). Using
Digital Clock Managers (DCMs) in Spartan-3 FPGAs
http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/appnotes/xapp462.pdf

The oscillator socket, indicated as in Figure 1-2, accepts oscillators
in
an 8-pin DIP footprint."

Paul

Simon wrote:
> 
>    Xilinx starter kit
>    ------------------
> 
>       Pros: 32-bit wide RAM
>             LCD/Leds for debugging
>             PS2/VGA outputs
>             Price: $99 :-)
> 
>       Cons:
>             Only 1 MByte of RAM
>             Uses the '200 part not the '400
>             No ethernet PHY
>             Fixed oscillator freq. (the CPU goes faster :-)
>             Not many user-IO's available
>

Article: 71440
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Duane Clark <junkmail@junkmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:54:00 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Gregg C Levine wrote:
> 
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Just for the sake of arguement, where did you find the Linux version of the 
> tool? Every time I visit their webpages, all it talks about is the Windows 
> version of the tool. And I've tried searching the site, its search engine does 
> not properly return anything.

Sorry, but I paid for the "full" ISE, which is the only way to get the 
Linux version (the full ISE includes a couple of additional tools and 
supports more parts). Hopefully Webpack will eventually be made 
available in the Linux version. Possibly Xilinx, like many vendors, 
wants to use there paying customers for beta testing. I think that they 
realize the paying customers are probably a bit more experienced at 
debugging the vendor tools ;)

-- 
My real email is akamail.com@dclark (or something like that).

Article: 71441
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Duane Clark <junkmail@junkmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:57:05 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Simon wrote:
> 
> You should also be aware that it doesn't appear to work well if you have 
> an Athlon64 processor. I've had Wine working fine under non-64 bit 
> processors, but can't get it to compile on 64-bit linux for the AMD64.
> 

I had thought the application needs to be compiled for 64-bit operation, 
otherwise there will be little benefit to running it on a 64 bit 
processor. Are you seeing better performance running 32 bit apps on a 64 
bit processor?

-- 
My real email is akamail.com@dclark (or something like that).

Article: 71442
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:12:12 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Joe wrote:

>
> 1Mb RAM is quite a lot usless you use it for video/audio processing.
> Regarding bus width issue, you can develope a simple bus bridge /
> RAM controller to convert 32-bit accesses to 16-bits (provided you
> have wait state input on your CPU core).

Well, I want to do a few things with the board when I get it. I used to 
use a unix workstation that ran a 32-bit CPU at 33 MHz and life was 
good. Now my cpu may not be a MIPS 3000, but at 70MHz (estimated, it's 
doing 65 now with minimal effort on floorplanning), I'd hope it could be 
compared. Or perhaps I'm dreaming - at any rate I'd like to find out :-)

The core does have wait states for memory (and on-chip peripherals), but 
one of the things I'd like to do ultimately is fill a line of i/d-cache 
at a time from the (currently non-existant :-) memory controller using 
burst mode, which means that I'll want that controller<->RAM interface 
to run as fast as possible.

I also want to try and get it encoding/decoding video <--> mpeg2 if I 
can. Having seen the complexity of the s/w written to do that, I think 
that's a pretty big challenge (at least for me :-) but I think others 
have done it for student projects etc. Having the CPU might make it 
possible to do some of it in s/w and just have the heavy-lifting in h/w. 
  I'm not sure how much space it'll take to do an MPEG core though - 
perhaps too much for the '400 device.

Anyway, that's why I'd like lots of memory :-) 256MBytes on an SO-Dimm 
seems like a good idea to me :-)

> A few more things add to the wish list:
> - RS232 (already available om some boards you mentioned)
> - PS/2 interface x 2 (one for mouse, one for keyboard as the same time)
> - Audio (I2S)
> - SDRAM, or
> - SDRAM module connector ( for PC100/133 modules - you can plug one
>   in if you wanted to use SDRAM, or if you don't need SD-RAM you
>   can have the pins for user I/O.)
> - LCD module connector
> - and yes, Xilinx, will you guys make a starter kit with XC3S-400 
> pleassssssssssse  8-)

I think the crucial thing is i/o pins. It's not too hard to fire up 
Eagle and make your own add-on daughterboard as long as the i/o is 
available. Without, it's impossible...

One of the things I like about the Broaddown2 (odd name for a board) is 
that a *lot* of i/o is available and not in some high-density connector, 
but with easy-to-use pinouts :-)

Simon

Article: 71443
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:36:47 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

Actually, just to follow that up, John, how much is a '1500 part on the 
board ? I realise I'd have to fork out for BaseX ('cos there ain't no 
way I'm paying for Foundation!) but that would have the side-effect of 
letting me work on Linux :-)

Simon


Article: 71444
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Joe <joe_y@invalid_address.nospam.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:48:34 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Paul Hartke wrote:

> Joe, 
> 
> According to http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/userguides/ug130.pdf,
> the Xilinx Spartan-3 Starter Kit board uses the Digilent expansion 
> header.  A number of peripheral boards are available at:
> https://digilent.us/Sales/boards.cfm#Peripheral
> 
> Paul
> 
> Joe wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>- Also it would be nice if vendors can develop I/O boards for the
>>Xilinx's kit (am I getting too demanding here? :-)
>>
>>Joe

Thanks Paul. I didn't realize they are the same connector :-)

Joe

Article: 71445
Subject: Re: Memory width on Spartan-3 boards
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:55:58 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Paul Hartke wrote:

> Simon,
> 
> With regard to the Oscillator frequency, have you seen the following in
> the User Guide (http://www.xilinx.com/bvdocs/userguides/ug130.pdf)?
> 
> "The Spartan-3 Starter Kit board has a dedicated 50 MHz Epson SG-8002JF
> series clock oscillator source and an optional socket for another clock  
> oscillator source. Figure A-5 provides a detailed schematic for the
> clock
> sources.

[grin] You're getting there, Paul :-) If you can do something about the 
1 MByte of RAM and the '200 part, I'll have found my ideal board :-)

Anyway, as you rightly point out, scratch the bottom 3 'cons' for the 
starter kit - it really is good value, isn't it ?

>>   Xilinx starter kit
>>   ------------------
>>
>>      Pros: 32-bit wide RAM
>>            LCD/Leds for debugging
>>            PS2/VGA outputs
>>            Price: $99 :-)
>>
>>      Cons:
>>            Only 1 MByte of RAM
>>            Uses the '200 part not the '400
>>        (x) No ethernet PHY
>>        (x) Fixed oscillator freq. (the CPU goes faster :-)
>>        (x) Not many user-IO's available
>>

Simon

Article: 71446
Subject: Re: Xilinx 6.2i ISE WebPACK running under wine?
From: Simon <news@gornall.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:55:10 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Duane Clark wrote:

> Simon wrote:
> 
>>
>> You should also be aware that it doesn't appear to work well if you 
>> have an Athlon64 processor. I've had Wine working fine under non-64 
>> bit processors, but can't get it to compile on 64-bit linux for the 
>> AMD64.
>>
> 
> I had thought the application needs to be compiled for 64-bit operation, 
> otherwise there will be little benefit to running it on a 64 bit 
> processor. Are you seeing better performance running 32 bit apps on a 64 
> bit processor?

Well, I was initially hoping to compile Wine in 64-bit mode, figuring 
that because it "wasn't an emulator", then when the Windows calls 
finally made it through to the lower levels of Wine, it would be running 
at 64-bits, although of course the windows code itself would only be 
32-bit. The thing being that in 64-bit mode you get a swathe of new 
registers etc, that (irrespective of the bit-ness) allow far more 
flxibility to the compiler...

Anyway, my hopes were dashed. Wine wouldn't work, even in 32-bit mode :-(

Simon

Article: 71447
Subject: Re: FPGAs starting with incorrect bitstream !?
From: Jim Granville <no.spam@designtools.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:00:43 +1200
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Antti Lukats wrote:
> "Ray Andraka" <ray@andraka.com> wrote in message
> news:40F5B093.70E01445@andraka.com...
> 
>>I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but perhaps this has not
> 
> been
> 
>>considered. I sincerely doubt it is a configuration problem.  Much more
> 
> likely, you are not
> 
>>coming out of reset at the end of configuration cleanly.  The global reset
> 
> must be
> 
> Hi Ray,
> 
> didnt notice some more replies to my post, thanks!
> 
> well let me again explain the situation:
> 
> its Virtex2, it has Microblaze with 32k BRAM, I am using both impact and
> Chipscope
> to download the bitstreams. The bitstream is known good, but in some cases
> after download one hard coded register is read by microblaze like giving
> wrong
> readback. The readback is constant for given configuration attempt. And the
> wrong read value persists after any number of hardware reset. Only goes away
> after new reconfiguration. The wrong read value comes from an verilog wire
> (that has an assigned constant value). I still do not see how the clocking
> or reset problem could do that. If the bitstream is loaded again the problem
> disappears. If the same bitstream is loaded from configuration memory there
> is never a problem.
> 
> BRAMs are initialized, flip flops are initialized ok, or they are not
> relevant
> in the current problem. If the FPGA is not able to start with errors during
> actual configuration download, I would say this problem should never
> have occoured.
> 
> Ray - if you notice my plea to give information about Xilinx Auto-CRC
> has been left un-responded. Virtex 2 bitstream does not include normal
> CRC as it used be in spartan II/E. Its replaced with AutoCRC. But there
> is no information how it is calculated anywhere in any public documents!
> 
> Xilinx says that the old CRC was not good enough and did not catch all
> errors during configuration !!  But I bet the new one is not much better!
> 
> Antti

  If I read this right, you are saying that read-back does show the 
error, and that error persists on many read-backs until re-config ?
  That does sound like a config-write-error.
Have you tried multiple devices (ideally with differing datecodes ?)
  If this persists across device/date code boundaries, I would say it
shows a serious blind spot.
  In general, any device program includes a verify step, and on an
FPGA devices skipping verify has probably become the norm, because of 
'saving time' reasons.
  If the CRC is not sufficently reliable, then
that would make config something of a lottery.
  [just maybe they do not CRC the whole bitstream ?]

Perhaps someone from Xilinx could clarify more what AutoCRC is, and does ?

-jg


Article: 71448
Subject: Re: FPGAs starting with incorrect bitstream !?
From: Bob Perlman <bobsrefusebin@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:26:23 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:00:43 +1200, Jim Granville
<no.spam@designtools.co.nz> wrote:

>Antti Lukats wrote:
>> "Ray Andraka" <ray@andraka.com> wrote in message
>> news:40F5B093.70E01445@andraka.com...
>> 
>>>I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but perhaps this has not
>> 
>> been
>> 
>>>considered. I sincerely doubt it is a configuration problem.  Much more
>> 
>> likely, you are not
>> 
>>>coming out of reset at the end of configuration cleanly.  The global reset
>> 
>> must be
>> 
>> Hi Ray,
>> 
>> didnt notice some more replies to my post, thanks!
>> 
>> well let me again explain the situation:
>> 
>> its Virtex2, it has Microblaze with 32k BRAM, I am using both impact and
>> Chipscope
>> to download the bitstreams. The bitstream is known good, but in some cases
>> after download one hard coded register is read by microblaze like giving
>> wrong
>> readback. The readback is constant for given configuration attempt. And the
>> wrong read value persists after any number of hardware reset. Only goes away
>> after new reconfiguration. The wrong read value comes from an verilog wire
>> (that has an assigned constant value). I still do not see how the clocking
>> or reset problem could do that. If the bitstream is loaded again the problem
>> disappears. If the same bitstream is loaded from configuration memory there
>> is never a problem.
>> 
>> BRAMs are initialized, flip flops are initialized ok, or they are not
>> relevant
>> in the current problem. If the FPGA is not able to start with errors during
>> actual configuration download, I would say this problem should never
>> have occoured.
>> 
>> Ray - if you notice my plea to give information about Xilinx Auto-CRC
>> has been left un-responded. Virtex 2 bitstream does not include normal
>> CRC as it used be in spartan II/E. Its replaced with AutoCRC. But there
>> is no information how it is calculated anywhere in any public documents!
>> 
>> Xilinx says that the old CRC was not good enough and did not catch all
>> errors during configuration !!  But I bet the new one is not much better!
>> 
>> Antti
>
>  If I read this right, you are saying that read-back does show the 
>error, and that error persists on many read-backs until re-config ?

Good question.  Antti, when you say that "readback" is consistent, are
you referring to the MicroBlaze's readback of that one register, or
are you saying that you are seeing an error when you perform a
bitstream readback?

Bob Perlman
Cambrian Design Works






Article: 71449
Subject: Re: Altera SOPC SDRAM & CLK Input?
From: pinod01@sympatico.ca (Pino)
Date: 18 Jul 2004 19:13:28 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
kempaj@yahoo.com (Jesse Kempa) wrote in message news:<95776079.0407150807.5ca1b217@posting.google.com>...
> > 
> > Jesse/Ken,
> >  
> >     Thanks for your responses.  In fact I was debating whether or not
> > I needed one, but both your responses definitely eliminate my thought
> > of not having to implement one.  I agree that this is required and
> > will definitely help me with any board skew as well.   I haven't
> > implemented, but will look into the example and try to use some of the
> > results from that for the board.  Do you know what the trace-lengths
> > (layout) is on the board to configure the proper phase delay
> > parameters for the PLL for the 1s10 NIOS eval.board?  Is there a
> > recommended number I should use?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Pino
> 
> Look at the "standard" or "standard_32" design in Quartus and
> double-click the PLL block to edit it. The wizard has several pages of
> settings for the PLL. The one you are concerned with is the "Clock e0"
> page, which lets you set a multiplier/divisor for the external clock
> going to the PLL (the clock "c0" page lets you setup the clock that is
> fed, in the example design, to SOPC Builder/Nios).
> 
> These settings let you set a phase shift in degrees or seconds; we
> measured the delay between clock generation & signals arriving at
> external SDRAM using an oscilloscope for our dev boards and that delay
> is where the figure you see comes from. I'm looking at an example for
> a 1s40 dev board now and its -3.5ns of shift. I recommend setting
> shift in nanoseconds versus degrees of phase, because this way the
> shift is constant even if you later tweak the clock speed of your
> design.
> 
> Also, this PLL wizard is what you would use to change the clock speed
> going to your SOPC Builder design (or other user logic).
> 
> - Jesse

Setting the PLL to the correct phase delay helped.  I now have a 100
MHz clock feeding my SDRAM module.  I had started to implement the
PLL, but was not sure if this was exactly the right approach for
advancing the clock frequency.  All your comments are very
appreciated!



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